Forum |  HardWare.fr | News | Articles | PC | S'identifier | S'inscrire | Shop Recherche
792 connectés 

 


 Mot :   Pseudo :  
 
 Page :   1  2  3  4  5
Auteur Sujet :

Plus de petrole dans 30 ans ?

n°5991406
Profil sup​primé
Posté le 01-07-2005 à 10:08:40  answer
 

Reprise du message précédent :

Oilive a écrit :

Quelle énergie ?


 
le cheval  :o

mood
Publicité
Posté le 01-07-2005 à 10:08:40  profilanswer
 

n°6067521
mangaflip
Pain & Gain !
Posté le 11-07-2005 à 02:25:39  profilanswer
 

le cheval sa coute pour l' instant plus chere a entretenir !
les chercheur se penchent sur des energie renouvelable mais en attendant en vide nos reserve, si la chine n' exister pas on pourrait tenir encore 30 de plus pas plus. le soucis du petrole c'est que il en faut pour matiere premiere en priorité plastique par exemple ceux qui entoure nos ecrans ...nos carte mere ! le carburant sa passe

n°6069013
Profil sup​primé
Posté le 11-07-2005 à 11:16:07  answer
 

Pour avoir travailler dans la petrochimie 2 ans. Et avoir entendu parler de ce sujet plusieur fois je peux vous affirmer que nous avons des ressource en petrole pour au moins 80 ans . En effet 2 point sont aà prendre en consideration :
1-Les gisement que l'ont considerais "vide" jusqu'a present contiennent encore au moins 30 % de la quantité dont il disposais originellement incrusté dans les roches poreuses du gisement. Et techniquement aujourd'hui on a les moyens de l'extraire par injection de gaz ou autres (diverse methodes existent !!) mais globalement ces methodes ne sont pas du tout rentable (du moins pas encore !!!)
2-Nous sommes tres loin d'avoir decouvert tous les gisements de petrole de notre bonne vieille terre en effet seul les 3000 premiers metres sous l'eau nous sont accessiible ainsi que les territoires normalement habtés pour le moment tres peu de recherche sur les gisements au fond des mers ou aux poles !!!
 
Donc voila c'est mon opinion et je la partage !!!


Message édité par Profil supprimé le 11-07-2005 à 11:22:50
n°6069123
SekYo
Posté le 11-07-2005 à 11:28:13  profilanswer
 

Mui mais non ;)
 
Enfin je ne pense pas que le problème vienne d'un épuisement des réserves de pétrole... Comme il a été dit la production d'un gisement passe par une phase croissante, un pic, puis décroit... La question est de savoir au niveau mondial dans combien de temps ce pic sera atteint... Parce que faut pas se leurrer, les prix augmenteront bien avant l'épuisement total des réserves.... Alors oui l'exploitation des sables bitumeux deviendra rentable, mais avec un baril à 100, 150 $, je pense que y faudra envisager quelques... aménagements à nos modes de vie ;)
 
Par contre pour les decouvertes de gisements nouveaux je veux bien suivre les majors pétrolières, mais dans ce cas faudrait qu'elles m'expliquent pourquoi depuis 10 ans les réserves PROUVEES de pétrole qu'elles possèdent sont sans cesse révisée à la baisse (sans parler de certains scandales de compagnies américaines qui multiplient leur réserves...)
 
 
Concernant Mars, elle fait en revanche 1/3 de la Terre... Par contre la surface utile est bien plus importante que sur Terre, vu qu'une immense partie sur Terre est recouverte par les eaux...
 
 
@poutreLLa : Certes tu pollues pas plus qu'un autre... Maintenant rien que pour poster ici tu utilises un ordinateur qui consomme au bas mot 250 ou 300 Watts, et dont la fabrication a nécessité l'utilisation de composants extrèmement polluant... Sans parler du problème du recyclage de ta machine qui a toutes les chances de finir en Chine :s


Message édité par SekYo le 11-07-2005 à 11:30:57
n°6075536
mangaflip
Pain & Gain !
Posté le 11-07-2005 à 23:50:53  profilanswer
 

80 ans ! dans tous les cas ce n' est pas infini si dans les 80 ans on n' a rien trouver en substitution on nos enfants sont dans la cata

n°6075668
romain05
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 00:03:31  profilanswer
 

SekYo a écrit :

Sans parler du problème du recyclage de ta machine qui a toutes les chances de finir en Chine :s


 
En afrique, en afrique  [:aloy]  
Ils font fondre les ecrans & composants pour récupérer l'or  :sarcastic:

n°6075722
lokilefour​be
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 00:07:37  profilanswer
 


 
Je ne suis pas convaincu que ton estimation tienne compte de la demande croissante et quasi exponentielle de la Chine et de l'Inde.
Et dans une moindre mesure (certes) de l'afrique.
Par contre là ou je ne m'inquiète pas pour les compagnies pétrolières, c'est que le spectre de la pénurie (réel ou exagéré) va leur permettre de faire sauter tout les verrous écologiques, ls sites protégés et autres réserves naturelles peuvent commencer à trembler.


---------------

n°6076069
Oilive
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 00:53:16  profilanswer
 


Certes mais à quel débit ?

n°6076616
wave
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 02:38:02  profilanswer
 

Oilive a écrit :

Certes mais à quel débit ?


Au débit où on arrivera à l'extraire :D
et je prédis même qu'en continuant à suivre le débit où l'extraction sera rentable, on aura encore du pétrole dans 500 ans. Quelques barils par an pour les rares domaines où on n'aura pas trouvé mieux... :whistle:  
Sérieusement on est tout près du pic de production, on a surement déjà atteint le moment où le prix va globalement grimper chaque année, seuls ceux dont le revenu augmente pourront éviter de diminuer de + en + leur consommation. Le pétrole pas cher c'est fini.
Le + grave c'est qu'on commercialise une grande majorité de voitures neuves qui sont beaucoup moins économiques que ce qu'on est capable de faire, et qu'un certain nombre partira à la casse en étant encore en état de rouler...
Comment gaspiller du fric au moment où il faudrait investir dans l'économie de pétrole...

n°6077642
SekYo
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 10:48:21  profilanswer
 

Pour ceux que le sujet interesse, y a déjà un topic de 20 pages dans la partie Sciences au sujet de la fin du pétrole...
 
Et comme en plus j'suis gentil, j'vous file direct le lien  :sol:  
http://forum.hardware.fr/hardwaref [...] 5899-1.htm

mood
Publicité
Posté le 12-07-2005 à 10:48:21  profilanswer
 

n°6089144
dj lapinou
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:25:59  profilanswer
 

Les estimations qui prevoit des reserves pour 30 ans sont plutot optimiste car elle prenne en conte l hypotetiaue decouverte de nouveau puits de petrole.

n°6089179
wave
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:29:35  profilanswer
 

dj lapinou a écrit :

Les estimations qui prevoit des reserves pour 30 ans sont plutot optimiste car elle prenne en conte l hypotetiaue decouverte de nouveau puits de petrole.


Qui te dit que la prévision sur la quantité de réserves à découvrir est optimiste?

n°6089185
dj lapinou
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:30:07  profilanswer
 

Encore plus inquietant, il me semble que les reserves d Uranium (ou autre element servant aux reactions nucleaire) exploitable ne representent pas des stoks considerable.
 
Est ce aue quelqun a des informations plus precises sue le sujet.

n°6089194
dj lapinou
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:31:53  profilanswer
 

wave a écrit :

Qui te dit que la prévision sur la quantité de réserves à découvrir est optimiste?


 
 
car elle est fonde sur la moyenne des decouvertes de ces dernieres annees et tout laisse a croire qu elle vont aller en diminuant.


---------------
La démocratie est le pire des systèmes, à l'exception de tout les autres. (de chez plus qui)
n°6089198
Friday Mon​day
Trop de hérissons écrasés...
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:32:16  profilanswer
 

dj lapinou a écrit :

Les estimations qui prevoit des reserves pour 30 ans sont plutot optimiste car elle prenne en conte l hypotetique decouverte de nouveau puits de petrole.


 
Bah oui, c'est logique : plus le baril augmente et plus le nombre de gisement rentable augmente. Il y a du pétrole qui couterait trop cher à extraire avec un baril à 60 dollars mais qui devient rentable s'il passe à 100$.
 
Il reste que ces estimations sont assez "bidons" (humour) car ils ne peuvent prendre en compte avec précision la demande de la Chine et de l'Inde.
 
 


---------------
Friedrich Nietzsche : Le christianisme et l'alcool, les deux plus grands agents de corruption
n°6089232
dj lapinou
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:36:42  profilanswer
 

La fin des reserves de petrole va entriner tres probablement une crise economique grave. Personne n ausera se bouger le cul avant la fin des stocks et on aura le droit a un petit crash boursier, suivi d une crise economique.
 
Je pense au il est difficile de mesurer les consequences qu auront l epuisement des reserves e petrole.


---------------
La démocratie est le pire des systèmes, à l'exception de tout les autres. (de chez plus qui)
n°6089330
wave
Posté le 13-07-2005 à 17:48:53  profilanswer
 

dj lapinou a écrit :

Encore plus inquietant, il me semble que les reserves d Uranium (ou autre element servant aux reactions nucleaire) exploitable ne representent pas des stoks considerable.
 
Est ce aue quelqun a des informations plus precises sue le sujet.


300 TW-an.
la consommation totale d'énergie dans le monde était de 12 TW-an en 2003, les prévisions sont une stabilisation à 24 TW-an en 2050.
En gros, 24 an de la consommation actuelle, 12 ans de la consommation qu'on aura en 2050.
Avec la surgénération et l'utilisation d'uranium-238 et de thorium-232, on peut tenir 1200 à 4000 ans, au prix d'investissements considérables, et d'un nombre aussi considérable d'installations à risque produisant des déchets à gérer.
 
source: Mal de Terre, d'Hubert Reeves.
 
Tchernobyl n'est peut-être pas envisagé en France, mais si tous les pays se mettent au 100% nucléaire (même la france est loin du 100% nucléaire si on ne compte pas que l'électricité), ça pourrait devenir habituel, surtout qu'il s'agit de types de centrales qu'on ne maitrise pas encore correctement.

n°6092289
balthazarz
LoneWolf
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 01:17:24  profilanswer
 

dj lapinou a écrit :

Encore plus inquietant, il me semble que les reserves d Uranium (ou autre element servant aux reactions nucleaire) exploitable ne representent pas des stoks considerable.
 
Est ce aue quelqun a des informations plus precises sue le sujet.


 
Iter est la solution.


---------------
Linus is god ...
n°6092317
wave
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 01:19:58  profilanswer
 

balthazarz a écrit :

Iter est la solution.


iter est peut-être une solution. Si çà marche pas (aucun scientifique indépendant n'affirme que ça marchera), il vaut mieux prévoir une autre solution.
Et même si ça marche, on a le temps d'avoir une bonne crise énergétique avant.


Message édité par wave le 14-07-2005 à 01:20:19
n°6092380
balthazarz
LoneWolf
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 01:25:30  profilanswer
 

wave a écrit :

300 TW-an.
la consommation totale d'énergie dans le monde était de 12 TW-an en 2003, les prévisions sont une stabilisation à 24 TW-an en 2050.
En gros, 24 an de la consommation actuelle, 12 ans de la consommation qu'on aura en 2050.
Avec la surgénération et l'utilisation d'uranium-238 et de thorium-232, on peut tenir 1200 à 4000 ans, au prix d'investissements considérables, et d'un nombre aussi considérable d'installations à risque produisant des déchets à gérer.
 
source: Mal de Terre, d'Hubert Reeves.
 
Tchernobyl n'est peut-être pas envisagé en France, mais si tous les pays se mettent au 100% nucléaire (même la france est loin du 100% nucléaire si on ne compte pas que l'électricité), ça pourrait devenir habituel, surtout qu'il s'agit de types de centrales qu'on ne maitrise pas encore correctement.


 
Hu ? qu'on ne maîtrise pas la "fusion" encore sa OK, mais la "fission" ... pardonne moi mais LoL quoi.
 
Les réacteurs de type tokamak "iter" sont l'avenir, je te recommande de faire un tour sur le site de "tore supra" reacteur experimental à "Fusion" à cadarache, déjà exploité a des fin sientifiques depuis 98.


---------------
Linus is god ...
n°6092394
balthazarz
LoneWolf
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 01:26:27  profilanswer
 

wave a écrit :

iter est peut-être une solution. Si çà marche pas (aucun scientifique indépendant n'affirme que ça marchera), il vaut mieux prévoir une autre solution.
Et même si ça marche, on a le temps d'avoir une bonne crise énergétique avant.


 
 
restons optimiste :)
 
http://www-fusion-magnetique.cea.fr/cea/ts/ts.htm
 
 
(mais cela dit sa me ferais bien plaisir de savoir les majors pétrolier dans la merdass)


Message édité par balthazarz le 14-07-2005 à 01:28:08

---------------
Linus is god ...
n°6092465
wave
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 01:37:52  profilanswer
 

balthazarz a écrit :

Hu ? qu'on ne maîtrise pas la "fusion" encore sa OK, mais la "fission" ... pardonne moi mais LoL quoi.
 
Les réacteurs de type tokamak "iter" sont l'avenir, je te recommande de faire un tour sur le site de "tore supra" reacteur experimental à "Fusion" à cadarache, déjà exploité a des fin sientifiques depuis 98.


on maitrise la fission de l'uranium-235. pour le reste, regarde ce qu'on a fait de superphoenix :D
iter est un pari intéressant à tenter, rien de + jusqu'à nouvel ordre.

n°6093616
Wendigo
Profil : Castor Funk
Posté le 14-07-2005 à 10:43:52  profilanswer
 

poutrella a écrit :

Pour info je ne possède pas de voiture, j'ai 18 ans et ne pense pas nuire particulierement à l'environemment.
Et ce n'est pas parceque j'aurais une voiture que je n'utiliserai que ca..
A mon sens les transports en commun devraient êtrent largement accessible à la population, voir gratuit
Les pistens cyclables sont malheuresement délaissés au profit des routes et des voitures etc..
C'est du beau...


 
A part Paris, y a bcp de ville ou les transports en commun déssert pas partout ^^
 
Deplus... Moi j'aime pas la foule des bus/train en heures de pointes, préfère ma tuture :D ou courrir ^^
 
Edit : j'ai pas lu tout le topic, on a abordé le fait que lorsque la Chine et l'Inde aura un park automobile aussi développé qu'en occident, cela fera une répercution non négligeable sur le débit de consommation de barils par an ?


Message édité par Wendigo le 14-07-2005 à 10:46:32

---------------
Dessin du 18 Juin 2024 : Illustration Kimeshoten part 2 | Graphisme
n°6121187
didierjuli​a
Posté le 18-07-2005 à 16:03:44  profilanswer
 

Un site excellent sur la question et les enjeux géopolitiques.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/

n°6121302
didierjuli​a
Posté le 18-07-2005 à 16:17:33  profilanswer
 

Revolution, geopolitics and pipelines
 
By F. William Engdahl  
June 30, 2005
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Globa [...] 0Dj01.html
 
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
 
After a short-term fall in price below the $50 a barrel level, oil has broken through the $60 level and is likely to go far higher. In this situation one might think the announcement of the opening of a major new oil pipeline to pump Caspian oil to world markets might dampen the relentless rise in prices.
 
 
However, even when the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries agreed on June 15 to raise its formal production quota by another 500,000 barrels per day (bpd), the reaction of NYMEX oil futures prices was to rise, not fall. Estimates are that world demand in the second half of 2005 will average at least 3 million barrels a day more than the first half of the year.  
 
Oil has become the central theme of world political and military operations planning, even when not always openly said.  
 
Caspian pipeline opens a Pandora's box  
In this situation, it is worth looking at the overall significance of the May opening of the Baku to Ceyhan, Turkey, oil pipeline. This 1,762 kilometer long oil pipeline was completed some months ahead of plan.
 
The BTC (Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan) pipeline was begun in 2002 after four years of intense international dispute. It cost about US$3.6 billion, making it one of the most expensive oil projects ever. The main backer was British Petroleum (BP), whose chairman, Lord Browne, is a close adviser to Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair. BP built the pipeline through a consortium including Unocal of the US, Turkish Petroleum Inc, and other partners.  
 
It will take until at least late September before 10.4 million barrels can provide the needed volume to start oil delivery to the Turkish port of Ceyhan on the Mediterranean Sea. Ceyhan is conveniently near to the US airbase Incirlik. The BTC has been a US strategic priority ever since president Bill Clinton first backed it in 1998. Indeed, for the opening ceremonies in May, US Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman attended and delivered a personal note of congratulations from US President George W Bush.  
 
As the political makeup of the Central Asia Caspian region is complex, especially since the decomposition of the Soviet Union opened up a scramble in the oil-rich region of the Caspian from the outside, above all from the US, it is important to bear in mind the major power blocs that have emerged.  
 
They are two. On the one side is an alliance of US-Turkey-Azerbaijan and, since the "Rose" revolution, Georgia, that small but critical country directly on the pipeline route. Opposed to it, in terms of where the pipeline route carrying Caspian oil should go, is Russia, which until 1990 held control over the entire Caspian outside the Iran littoral. Today, Russia has cultivated an uneasy but definite alliance with Iran and Armenia, in opposition to the US group. This two-camp grouping is essential to understanding developments in the region since 1991.  
 
Now that the BTC oil pipeline has finally been completed, and the route through Georgia has been put firmly in pro-Washington hands, an essential precondition to completing the pipeline, the question becomes one of how Moscow will react. Does President Vladimir Putin have any serious options left short of the ultimate nuclear one?  
 
A clear strategy
A geopolitical pattern has become clear over the past months. One-by-one, with documented overt and covert Washington backing and financing, new US-friendly regimes have been put in place in former Soviet states which are in a strategic relation to possible pipeline routes from the Caspian Sea.  
 
Ukraine is now more or less in the hands of a Washington-backed "democratic" regime under Viktor Yushchenko and his billionaire Prime Minister Yulia Timoshenko, known in Ukraine as the "gas princess" for the fortune she made as a government official, allegedly through her dubious dealings earlier with Ukraine Energy Minister Pavlo Lazarenko and Gazprom. The Yushchenko government's domestic credibility is reportedly beginning to fade as Ukrainian "Orange" revolution euphoria gives way to economic realities. In any event, on June 16 in Kiev, Yushchenko hosted a special meeting of the Davos World Economic Forum to discuss possible investments into the "new" Ukraine.  
 
At the Kiev meeting, Timoshenko's government announced that it planned to build a new oil and gas pipeline from the Caspian across Ukraine into Poland, which would lessen Ukraine's reliance on Moscow oil and gas supplies. Timoshenko also revealed that the Ukrainian government was in positive talks with Chevron, the former company of US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, for the project.  
 
It goes without saying that such a project would run counter to the Russian regional interest. One reason for Washington's strong backing for Yushchenko last year was to counter a decision by the Kuchma government and parliament to reverse the flow of the Brody-Odessa pipeline from a planned route from the Black Sea port into Poland. The initial Odessa-to-Poland route would have tied Ukraine to the West. Now Ukraine is discussing with Chevron to build a new pipeline doing the same. The country presently gets 80% of its energy from Russia.  
 
A second project Ukraine's government and the state NAK (Naftogaz Ukrainy) are discussing is with France's Gaz de France to build a pipeline from Iran for natural gas to displace Russian gas. Were that to happen it would simultaneously weaken ties of mutual self-interest between Russia and Iran, as well as Russia and France.  
 
On the same day as the Kiev conference, Kazakhstan's government told an international investors' conference in Almaty that it was in negotiations with Ukraine to route Kazakh oil as well through the proposed new Ukrainian pipeline to the Baltic. Chevron is also the major consortium leader developing Kazakh oil in Tengiz. Given the political nature of US "big oil", it is more than probable that Rice, Vice President Dick Cheney and the administration in Washington are playing a strong role in such Ukraine pipeline talks. The "Orange" revolution, at least from the side of its US sponsors, had little to do with real democracy and far more with military and oil geopolitics.  
 
Pipelines and US-Azeri ties  
The Baku-Ceyhan pipeline was originally proclaimed by BP and others as the project of the century. Former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski was a consultant to BP during the Bill Clinton era, urging Washington to back the project. In fact, it was Brzezinski who went to Baku in 1995, unofficially, on behalf of Clinton, to meet with then-Azeri president Haidar Aliyev, to negotiate new independent Baku pipeline routes, including what became the BTC pipeline.  
 
Brzezinski also sits on the board of an impressive, if little-known, US-Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce (USACC). The chairman of USACC in Washington is Tim Cejka, president of ExxonMobil Exploration. Other USACC board members include Henry Kissinger and James Baker III, the man who in 2003 personally went to Tbilisi to tell Eduard Shevardnadze that Washington wanted him to step aside in favor of the US-trained Georgian president Mikhail Shaakashvili. Brent Scowcroft, former national security adviser to George H W Bush, also sits on the board of USACC. And Cheney was a former board member before he became vice president. A more high-powered Washington team of geopolitical fixers would be hard to imagine. This group of prominent individuals certainly would not give a minute of their time unless an area was of utmost geopolitical strategic importance to the US or to certain powerful interests there.  
 
Now that the BTC pipeline to Ceyhan is complete, a phase 2 pipeline is in consideration undersea, potentially to link the Caspian to Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan with its rich gas reserves, directing that energy away from China to the West in a US-UK-controlled route.  
 
In this context, it's worth noting that Bush himself made a trip to Tbilisi on May 10 to address a crowd in Freedom Square, promoting his latest war on tyranny campaign for the region. He praised the US-backed "color revolutions" from Ukraine to Georgia. Bush went on to attack Franklin D Roosevelt's Yalta division of Europe in 1945. He made the curious declaration, "We will not repeat the mistakes of other generations, appeasing or excusing tyranny, and sacrificing freedom in the vain pursuit of stability," the president said. "We have learned our lesson; no one's liberty is expendable. In the long run, our security and true stability depend on the freedom of others." Bush continued, "Now, across the Caucasus, in Central Asia and the broader Middle East, we see the same desire for liberty burning in the hearts of young people. They are demanding their freedom - and they will have it."  
 
What color will the Azeri revolution take?  
Not surprisingly, that speech was read as a "go" signal for opposition groups across the Caucasus. In Azerbaijan four youth groups - Yokh! (No!), Yeni Fikir (New Thinking), Magam (It's Time) and the Orange Movement of Azerbaijan - comprise the emerging opposition, an echo of Georgia, Ukraine and Serbia, where the US Embassy and specially trained non-governmental organizations operatives orchestrated the US-friendly regime changes with help of the US National Endowment for Democracy, Freedom House and the Soros Foundations.  
 
According to Baku journalists, Ukraine's Pora (It's Time), Georgia's Kmara (Enough) and Serbia's Otpor (Resistance) are cited by all four Azeri opposition organizations as role models. The opposition groups also consider Bush's February meeting in Bratislava with Pora leader Vladislav Kaskiv as a sign that Washington supports their cause.  
 
It seems the same team of Washington regime-change experts are preparing for a "color revolution" for the upcoming November elections in Azerbaijan as were behind other recent color revolutions.  
 
In 2003, on the death of former Azeri president Haider Aliyev, his playboy son, Ilham Aliyev, became president in grossly rigged elections which Washington legitimized because Aliyev was "our tyrant", and also just happened to hold his hand on the spigot of Baku oil.  
 
Ilham, former president of the state oil company SOCAR, is tied to his father's power base and is apparently now seen as not suitable for the new pipeline politics. Perhaps he wants too big a share of the spoils. In any case, both Blair's UK government and the US State Department's AID are pouring money into Azeri opposition groups, similar to Otpor in Ukraine. US Ambassador Reno Harnish has stated that Washington is ready to finance "exit polling" in the elections. Exit polling in Ukraine was a key factor used to drive the opposition success there.  
 
Moscow is following Azeri events closely. On May 26, the Moscow daily Kommersant wrote, "While the pipeline will carry oil from the East to West, the spirit of 'color revolutions' will flow in the reverse direction." The commentary went on to suggest that Western governments wanted to promote democratization in Azerbaijan out of a desire to protect the considerable investment made in the pipeline. That is only a part of the strategic game, however. The other part is what Pentagon strategists term "strategic denial".  
 
Until recently the US had supported the corrupt ruthless dictatorship of the Aliyev's as the family had played ball with US geopolitical designs in the area, even though Haider Aliyev had been a career top KGB officer in the Soviet Mikhail Gorbachev era. Then on April 12, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld went to Baku, his second visit in four months, to discuss demands to create a US military base in Azerbaijan, as part of the US global force redeployment involving Europe, the Mideast and Asia.  
 
The Pentagon already de facto runs the Georgia military, with its US Special Forces officers, and Georgia has asked to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Now Washington wants to have direct bases in Azerbaijan proximate to Russia as well as to Iran.  
 
The Pentagon has also allocated $100 million to build a Caspian Guard of special forces military, ostensibly to guard the new BTC pipeline, though the latter was deliberately built underground to make it less vulnerable, one reason for its high cost. Part of the Pentagon money would go to build a radar-equipped command center in Baku, capable of monitoring all sea traffic in the Caspian. The US wants airbases in Azerbaijan, which naturally would be seen in Tehran and Moscow as a strategic provocation.  
 
In all this maneuvering from the side of Washington and 10 Downing Street, the strategic issue of geopolitical control over Eurasia looms large. And increasingly it is clear that not only Putin's Russia is an object of the new Washington "war on tyranny". It is becoming clear to most now that the grand design in Eurasia on the part of Washington is not to pre-empt Osama bin Laden and his "cave dwellers".  
 
The current Washington strategy targets many Eurasian former Soviet republics which per se have no known oil or gas reserves. What they do have, however, is strategic military or geopolitical significance for the Washington policy of dominating the future of Eurasia.  
 
That policy has China as its geopolitical, economic and military fulcrum. A look at the Eurasian map and at the target countries for various US-sponsored color revolutions makes this unmistakably clear. To the east of the Caspian Sea, Washington in one degree or another today controls Pakistan, Afghanistan, potentially Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. These serve as a potential US-controlled barrier or buffer zone between China and Russian, Caspian and Iranian energy sources. Washington is out to deny China easy land access to either Russia, the Middle East or to the oil and gas fields of the Caspian Sea.  
 
Whither Kyrgystan?
Since early 2005, when a series of opposition protests erupted over the fairness of parliamentary elections in February and March, Kyrgystan has joined the growing list of Eurasian republics facing major threat of regime change or color revolution. The success of former Kyrgystan premier Kurmanbek Bakiev in replacing ousted president Askar Akayev in that country's so-called "Tulip" revolution, becoming interim president until July presidential elections, invited inevitable comparisons with the "Orange" revolution in Ukraine and the Georgian "Rose" revolution.
 
Washington's Radio Liberty has gone to great lengths to explain that the Kyrgystan opposition is not a US operation, but a genuine spontaneous grass-roots phenomenon. The facts speak a different story however. According to reports from mainstream US journalists, including Craig Smith in the New York Times and Philip Shishkin in the Wall Street Journal, the opposition in Kyrgystan has had "more than a little help from US friends" to paraphrase the Beatles song. Under the Freedom Support Act of the US Congress, in 2004 the dirt-poor country of Kyrgystan received a total of $12 million in US government funds to support the building of democracy. This will buy a lot of democracy in an economically desolate, forsaken land such as Kyrgystan.  
 
Acknowledging the Washington largesse, Edil Baisolov, in a comment on the February-March anti-government protests, boasted, "It would have been absolutely impossible for this to have happened without that help." According to the New York Times' Smith, Baisolov's organization, the Coalition for Democracy and Civil Rights, is financed by the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, a Washington-based non-profit organization in turn funded by Rice's State Department. Baisolov told Radio Liberty he had been to Ukraine to witness the tactics of their "Orange" Revolution, and got inspired.  
 
But that isn't all. The whole cast of democracy characters has been busy in Bishkek and environs supporting American-style democracy and opposing "anti-American tyranny". Washington's Freedom House has generously financed Bishkek's independent printing press, which prints the opposition paper, MSN, according to its man on the scene, Mike Stone.  
 
Freedom House is an organization with a fine-sounding name and a long history since it was created in the late 1940s to back the creation of NATO. The chairman of Freedom House is James Woolsey, former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director who calls the present series of regime changes from Baghdad to Kabul "World War IV". Other trustees include the ubiquitous Zbigniew Brzezinski, former Clinton commerce secretary Stuart Eizenstat, and national security adviser Anthony Lake. Freedom House lists USAID, US Information Agency, the Soros Foundations and the National Endowment for Democracy among its financial backers.  
 
One more of the many non-governmental organizations active in promoting the new democracy in Kyrgystan is the Civil Society Against Corruption, financed by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). The NED which, with Freedom House, has been at the center of all the major color revolutions in recent years, was created during the Ronald Reagan administration to function as a de facto privatized CIA, privatized so as to allow more freedom of action, or what the CIA likes to call "plausible deniability". NED chairman Vin Weber, a former Republican congressman, is close to neo-conservative Bill Bennett. NED president since 1984 is Carl Gershman, who had previously been a Freedom House scholar. NATO General Wesley Clark, the man who led the US bombing of Serbia in 1999, also sits on the NED board. Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, said in 1991, "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."  
 
Not to be forgotten, and definitely not least in Kyrgystan's ongoing "Tulip" revolution is Soros' Open Society Institute - which also poured money into the Serbian, Georgian and Ukraine color revolutions. The head of the Civil Society Against Corruption in Kyrgystan is Tolekan Ismailova, who organized the translation and distribution of the revolutionary manual used in Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia written by Gene Sharp, of a curiously named Albert Einstein Institution in Boston. Sharp's book, a how-to manual for the color revolutions, is titled From Dictatorship to Democracy. It includes tips on non-violent resistance - such as "display of flags and symbolic colors" - and civil disobedience.  
 
Sharp's book is literally the bible of the color revolutions, a kind of "regime change for dummies". Sharp created his Albert Einstein Institution in 1983, with backing from Harvard University. It is funded by the US Congress' NED and the Soros Foundations, to train people in and to study the theories of "non-violence as a form of warfare". Sharp has worked with NATO and the CIA over the years training operators in Myanmar, Lithuania, Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and Taiwan, even Venezuela and Iraq.  
 
In short, virtually every regime which has been the target of a US-backed soft coup in the past 20 years has involved Gene Sharp and usually, his associate, Colonel Robert Helvey, a retired US Army intelligence specialist. Notably, Sharp was in Beijing two weeks before student demonstrations at Tiananmen Square in 1989. The Pentagon and US intelligence have refined the art of such soft coups to a fine level. RAND planners call it "swarming", referring to the swarms of youth, typically linked by short message services and weblogs, who can be mobilized on command to destabilize a target regime.  
 
Then Uzbekistan ...?  
Uzbekistan's tyrannical President Islam Karimov had early profiled himself as a staunch friend of the Washington "war on terror", offering a former Soviet airbase for US military actions, including the attack on the Taliban in Afghanistan in late 2001. Many considered Karimov too close to Washington to be in danger. He had made himself a "good" tyrant in Washington's eyes.  
 
That's also no longer a sure thing. In May, Rice demanded that Karimov institute "political reforms" following violent prison uprisings and subsequent protests over conditions in the Ferghana Valley region in Andijan. Karimov has fiercely resisted independent inquiry into allegations his troops shot and killed hundreds of unarmed protesters. He insists the uprisings were caused by "external" radical Muslim fundamentalists allied with the Taliban and intent on establishing an Islamic caliphate in Uzbekistan's Ferghana Valley bordering Kyrgystan.  
 
While the ouster of Karimov is unclear for the moment, leading Washington backers of Karimov's "democratic reform" have turned into hostile opponents. As one US commentator expressed it, "The character of the Karimov regime can no longer be ignored in deference to the strategic usefulness of Uzbekistan." Karimov has been targeted for a color revolution in the relentless Washington "war on tyranny".  
 
In mid-June, Karimov's government announced changes in terms for the US to use Uzbekistan's Karshi-Khanabad military airbase, including a ban on night flights. Karimov is moving demonstrably closer to Moscow, and perhaps also to Beijing, in the latest chapter of the new "Great Game" for geopolitical control over Eurasia.  
 
Following the Andijan events, Karimov revived the former "strategic partnership" with Moscow and also received a red-carpet welcome at the end of May in Beijing, including a 21-gun salute. At a June Brussels NATO meeting, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Ivanov backed Karimov, declaring there was no need for an international investigation of what happened in Andijan.  
 
Tajikistan, bordering Afghanistan and China, is so far the only remaining Central Asian republic not yet to undergo a successful US-led color revolution. It's not for lack of trying. For several years Washington has attempted to woo Dushanbe away from its close ties to Moscow, including the economic carrot of US backing for Tajik membership in the World Trade Organization. Beijing has also been active. China has recently upgraded military assistance to Tajikistan, and is keen to strengthen ties to all Central Asian republics standing between it and the energy resources to the Eurasian west, from Russia to Iran. The stakes are the highest for the oil-dependent China.  
 
Washington playing the China card
The one power in Eurasia that has the potential to create a strategic combination which could checkmate US global dominance is China. However, China has an Achilles' heel, which Washington understands all too well - oil. Ten years ago China was a net oil exporter. Today China is the second-largest importer behind the US.  
 
China's energy demand is growing annually at a rate of more than 30%. China has feverishly been trying to secure long-term oil and gas supplies, especially since the Iraq war made clear to Beijing that Washington was out to control and militarize most of the world's major oil and gas sources. A new wrinkle to the search for black gold, oil, is the clear data confirming that many of the world's largest oilfields are in decline, while new discoveries fail to replace lost volumes of oil. It is a pre-programmed scenario for war. The only question is, with what weapons?  
 
In recent months Beijing has signed major oil and economic deals with Venezuela and Iran. It has bid for a major Canadian resources company, and most recently made the audacious bid to buy California's Unocal, a partner in the Caspian BTC pipeline. Chevron immediately stepped in with a counter bid to block China's.  
 
Beijing has recently also upgraded the importance of the four-year-old organization, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, or SCO. SCO consists of China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan and Tajikistan. Not surprisingly, these are many of the states which are in the midst of US-backed attempts at soft coups or color revolutions. SCO's July meeting list included an invitation to India, Pakistan and Iran to attend with observer status.  
 
This June, the foreign ministers of Russia, China and India held a meeting in Vladivostock where they stressed the role of the United Nations, a move aimed clearly at Washington. India also discussed its project to invest and develop Russia's Far East Sakhalin I, where it has already invested about $1 billion in oil and gas development. Significantly, at the meeting, Russia and China resolved a decades-long border dispute, and two weeks later in Beijing discussed potentials for development of Russia's Siberian resources.  
 
A close look at the map of Eurasia begins to suggest what is so vital here for China, and therefore for Washington's future domination of Eurasia. The goal is not only strategic encirclement of Russia through a series of NATO bases ranging from Camp Bond Steel in Kosovo to Poland, to Georgia, possibly Ukraine and White Russia, which would enable NATO to control energy ties between Russia and the EU.  
 
Washington policy now encompasses a series of "democratic" or soft coup projects which would strategically cut China off from access to the vital oil and gas reserves of the Caspian, including Kazakhstan. The earlier Asian Great Silk Road trade routes went through Tashkent in Uzbekistan and Almaty in Kazakhstan for geographically obvious reasons, in a region surrounded by major mountain ranges.  
 
Geopolitical control of Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan and Kazakhstan would enable control of any potential pipeline routes between China and Central Asia, just as the encirclement of Russia allows for the control of pipeline and other ties between it and Western Europe, China, India and the Mideast.  
 
In this context, the revealing Foreign Affairs article from Zbigniew Brzezinski from September/October 1997 is worth again quoting:  
 
Eurasia is home to most of the world's politically assertive and dynamic states. All the historical pretenders to global power originated in Eurasia. The world's most populous aspirants to regional hegemony, China and India, are in Eurasia, as are all the potential political or economic challengers to American primacy. After the United States, the next six largest economies and military spenders are there, as are all but one of the world's overt nuclear powers, and all but one of the covert ones. Eurasia accounts for 75% of the world's population, 60% of its GNP [gross national product], and 75% of its energy resources. Collectively, Eurasia's potential power overshadows even America's.  
 
Eurasia is the world's axial supercontinent. A power that dominated Eurasia would exercise decisive influence over two of the world's three most economically productive regions, Western Europe and East Asia. A glance at the map also suggests that a country dominant in Eurasia would almost automatically control the Middle East and Africa. With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia. What happens with the distribution of power on the Eurasian landmass will be of decisive importance to America's global primacy ...  
 
This statement, written well before the US-led bombing of former Yugoslavia and the US occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq, or the BTC pipeline, helps put recent Washington pronouncements about "ridding the world of tyranny" and about spreading democracy into a somewhat different context from the one usually mentioned by Bush.  
 
"Elementary, my dear Watson. It's about global hegemony, not democracy, you fool."  
 
F William Engdahl, author of A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order, from Pluto Press Ltd.  
 
(Copyright 2005 F William Engdahl)
 

n°6122557
Proxounet
Posté le 18-07-2005 à 18:51:29  profilanswer
 

didierjulia a écrit :

Revolution, geopolitics and pipelines ...


Ptin rien de pire que les énormes patés tirés d'un site, indique plutot la page sur le site source ca évite d'user ma molette  :o  
ou une traduction mais là...
 
En tt cas je suis content d'être assez jeune pour savoir comment se merdier va se finir, je ne crois pas trop aux estimations sur plusieurs centaines d'années ; bien sur je suis concent que j'en subirait les conséquences, mais j'ai hate d'abreuver ma curiosité :)

n°6146694
mangaflip
Pain & Gain !
Posté le 21-07-2005 à 17:38:05  profilanswer
 

les estimation tiennent compte de l' evolution des pays...de la population mondial qui ne cesse d' augmenter et de l' evolution de la consommation d' essence

n°6148555
Wendigo
Profil : Castor Funk
Posté le 21-07-2005 à 21:53:36  profilanswer
 

Et si on vivait dans l'insouciance ?... heu nan ca vous tente pas... Tans pis j'aurai essayé ^^°


---------------
Dessin du 18 Juin 2024 : Illustration Kimeshoten part 2 | Graphisme
n°6382194
xavier-
Futur président
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 00:20:32  profilanswer
 

J'en vois parler du nucleaire comme une solution.. mais franchement, meme aux niveaux de prix du petrole actuel, il est certainement beaucoup plus rentable de produire de l'energie avec du petrole..
D'apres vous, quel seuil le petrole devrait-il atteindre pour que le nucleaire devienne plus rentable ?

n°6382623
lebouru
won't get fooled again!!!!!!!!
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 01:23:26  profilanswer
 

vive les panneaux solaires.Aujourd'hui on peut chauffer une habitation ,produire la moitiee de l'eau chaude d'une annee,produire l'energie pour l'eclairage grace a la geothermie,le photovoltaique,le rayonnement solaire...tout est une question de choix politiques collectifs et de courage individuel!
Apres ma perceuse est nucleaire je vous proposerai bientot mon pc est solaire!

n°6382671
Philambert
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 01:29:41  profilanswer
 

lebouru a écrit :

vive les panneaux solaires.Aujourd'hui on peut chauffer une habitation ,produire la moitiee de l'eau chaude d'une annee,produire l'energie pour l'eclairage grace a la geothermie,le photovoltaique,le rayonnement solaire...tout est une question de choix politiques collectifs et de courage individuel!
Apres ma perceuse est nucleaire je vous proposerai bientot mon pc est solaire!


 
 
C'est surtout un question de coût...

n°6382775
lebouru
won't get fooled again!!!!!!!!
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 01:44:57  profilanswer
 

je te repondrai:
-le prix des installations chute et les performance augmentent ,amortissement estimes en general de 5 a 10 ans pour des durees de vie de 20 a 30 ans...
-credit d'impots
-economies non negligeables sur ta facture EDF-GDF a l'utilisation  
-autonomie
 
Apres la decision appartient a chacun...la mienne est prise.

n°6383254
hpdp00
bleus, c'est fou
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 07:19:13  profilanswer
 

lebouru a écrit :

je te repondrai:
-le prix des installations chute et les performance augmentent ,amortissement estimes en general de 5 a 10 ans pour des durees de vie de 20 a 30 ans...
-credit d'impots
-economies non negligeables sur ta facture EDF-GDF a l'utilisation  
-autonomie
 
Apres la decision appartient a chacun...la mienne est prise.


faire payer ceux qui ne sont pas de la secte, la solution écolo miracle
seulement moi je ne suis pas d'accord pour financer les lubies des écolos par mes impôts, tu veux du solaire pour te chauffer, très bien, j'approuve, mais assume : achètes-en tant que tu veux mais me demande pas de te les offrir, merci!


---------------
du vide, j'en ai plein !
n°6385674
SuperCarot​te
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 14:43:37  profilanswer
 

hpdp00 a écrit :

faire payer ceux qui ne sont pas de la secte, la solution écolo miracle
seulement moi je ne suis pas d'accord pour financer les lubies des écolos par mes impôts, tu veux du solaire pour te chauffer, très bien, j'approuve, mais assume : achètes-en tant que tu veux mais me demande pas de te les offrir, merci!


 
Ce n'est pas une lubie, les systémes récents sont extremement performants.
De plus je prefere favoriser ces équipements par mes impôts plutôt que d'engraisser à fonds perdus les émirs du golfe à leur acheter du pétrole ou du gaz (pour les chaudiere thermiques).

n°6386588
wave
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 16:39:37  profilanswer
 

xavier- a écrit :

J'en vois parler du nucleaire comme une solution.. mais franchement, meme aux niveaux de prix du petrole actuel, il est certainement beaucoup plus rentable de produire de l'energie avec du petrole..
D'apres vous, quel seuil le petrole devrait-il atteindre pour que le nucleaire devienne plus rentable ?


Le nucléaire nous permet actuellement d'avoir une électricité compétitive face à celle produite à partir de pétrole. Le problème du nucléaire n'est pas là...
 

hpdp00 a écrit :

faire payer ceux qui ne sont pas de la secte, la solution écolo miracle
seulement moi je ne suis pas d'accord pour financer les lubies des écolos par mes impôts, tu veux du solaire pour te chauffer, très bien, j'approuve, mais assume : achètes-en tant que tu veux mais me demande pas de te les offrir, merci!


Le crédt d'impôt est accessible à tout le monde (enfin les propriétaires), c'est donc un investissement collectif. Et cet investissemet est rentable puisque c'est juste une aide pour franchir un peu + vite (avant que le pétrole ait encore augmenté) un pas qu'il faudra de toutes façons franchir.

n°6388812
hpdp00
bleus, c'est fou
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 22:03:01  profilanswer
 

wave a écrit :

Le nucléaire nous permet actuellement d'avoir une électricité compétitive face à celle produite à partir de pétrole. Le problème du nucléaire n'est pas là...
 
 
Le crédt d'impôt est accessible à tout le monde (enfin les propriétaires), c'est donc un investissement collectif. Et cet investissemet est rentable puisque c'est juste une aide pour franchir un peu + vite (avant que le pétrole ait encore augmenté) un pas qu'il faudra de toutes façons franchir.

donc aucune raison que ce soit moi contribuable qui paye pour les proprios. l'argument de ne pas enrichir un peu plus les émirs, je ne suis pas contre, à condition que ce ne soit pas pour enrichir les fabricants chinois de panneaux...


---------------
du vide, j'en ai plein !
n°6389058
SCH44
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 22:28:33  profilanswer
 

le probleme n'est pas combien de pétrole reste-t-il mais combien de CO2 peut on encore rejeter sans aboutir à une catastrophe... Si on épuise nos reserves de petrole on estime que dans un premier temps l'angleterre aura le climat du sahara (apres on en sait rien si le méthane des océans se libere à cause de la température c'est la fin de toute vie terrestre) Enfin bref pour l'instant vive le nucléaire

n°6389515
hpdp00
bleus, c'est fou
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 23:14:08  profilanswer
 

SCH44 a écrit :

le probleme n'est pas combien de pétrole reste-t-il mais combien de CO2 peut on encore rejeter sans aboutir à une catastrophe... Si on épuise nos reserves de petrole on estime que dans un premier temps l'angleterre aura le climat du sahara (apres on en sait rien si le méthane des océans se libere à cause de la température c'est la fin de toute vie terrestre) Enfin bref pour l'instant vive le nucléaire

je dirais un chiffre négatif... ce qui n'empéchera pas le pétrole restant d'être entièrement consommé


---------------
du vide, j'en ai plein !
n°6389629
mesnil
Posté le 24-08-2005 à 23:27:31  profilanswer
 

30 ans :foutaise!
plus de petrole facile d extraction, peut etre.

n°6395543
lnho
Vivement les vacances
Posté le 25-08-2005 à 17:32:52  profilanswer
 

Danette a écrit :

Mais oui...
 
Ceci dit, les US ont des réserves assez colossales  :sarcastic:


 
Tellement colossales qu'ils doivent en importer de plus en plus...  :ange:


Message édité par lnho le 25-08-2005 à 17:34:07
n°6408007
jmbocquet
et la lumière fut.
Posté le 27-08-2005 à 12:48:30  profilanswer
 

SCH44 a écrit :

le probleme n'est pas combien de pétrole reste-t-il mais combien de CO2 peut on encore rejeter sans aboutir à une catastrophe... Si on épuise nos reserves de petrole on estime que dans un premier temps l'angleterre aura le climat du sahara (apres on en sait rien si le méthane des océans se libere à cause de la température c'est la fin de toute vie terrestre) Enfin bref pour l'instant vive le nucléaire


 
trop tard !


---------------
stats boinc : http://jmb.boinc.fr/
mood
Publicité
Posté le   profilanswer
 

 Page :   1  2  3  4  5

Aller à :
Ajouter une réponse
 

Sujets relatifs
les arguments sur le petrole par les USBUSH c pour le petrole ou pour son election qu'il occupe l' IRAK ?
quand abandonnera t 'on le pétrole pour une autre énergie ?Putain si le petrole pouvais etre remplacé par autre chose !!
Quand le Monde cherche du petrole ! 
Plus de sujets relatifs à : Plus de petrole dans 30 ans ?


Copyright © 1997-2022 Hardware.fr SARL (Signaler un contenu illicite / Données personnelles) / Groupe LDLC / Shop HFR