El Dood a écrit :
Poutine aurait refusé de signer l'UN des PLUSIEURS brouillons qui ont été rédigés, et étant donné qu’on sait que certains des dernières version du document sont datées de 8 jours après la date de ton article, on peut déduire de façon certaine que ce n’était pas un arrêt définitif des négociations dû à Poutine, contrairement à ce que tu essayes de nous faire croire.
Citation :
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented Moscow with a draft peace deal containing "unacceptable" elements at variance with a previous agreement, comments that Kyiv dismissed as "pure propaganda".
Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented a draft agreement on Wednesday that deviated from proposals both sides' negotiators had agreed on.
Ukraine's new draft, according to Lavrov, said the status of Crimea, which Moscow annexed from Ukraine in 2014, should be raised at a meeting between the two countries' presidents.
It also said Ukraine could hold military drills with foreign countries without receiving Russia's permission, something Moscow disagrees with.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ [...] 022-04-07/
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On y croit, on y croit pas, toujours est t-il que les négociations continuent, on apprend par le Wall Street Journal, qui a eu accès à un autre document daté 15 Avril 2022 (soit 8 jours après ton soit-disant arrêt des négociations suite au refus de Poutine, rappelons le une nouvelle fois) :
Citation :
The document, dated April 15, 2022, sketches out how negotiators on both sides sought to end the fighting by agreeing to turn Ukraine into a “permanently neutral state that doesn’t participate in military blocs,” bar the country from rebuilding its military with Western support and leave Crimea under de facto Russian control.
Ultimately no deal was agreed upon. The scale of Russian war crimes in Ukraine became apparent, Ukraine’s military fortunes improved and the West poured in weapons to bolster Kyiv.
Wall Street Journal - https://archive.is/x9xsC
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C'est même le contraire, comme nous allons le voir, pour The Nation, la décision de ne pas donner suite aux négociations est plutôt une non-décision, les Ukrainiens, qui à cette date rencontraient un franc succès dans leur contre offensive, ayant décidé de ne pas les poursuivre:
Citation :
With the success of the Ukrainian counteroffensive of March 22 the Russians had a renewed incentive to negotiate, while Ukraine was starting to scent victory. The Ukrainian counter-attack also crucially strengthened the Western resolve to support Ukraine, leading to the withdrawal by Ukraine of even cosmetic concessions. As the Ukrainian army continued to inflict defeats on the Russians, and Western military aid was ramped up in the summer 2022, Ukraine had little further reason to talk to the Russians. The damage inflicted by continued fighting would be paid back by victory.
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L’article est interessant, et résume l’échec des négociations à 3 points: - La retraite des troupes Russes permet un retournement de la situation militaire.
- La découverte des exactions commises sur des civils dans Bucha et ailleurs.
- Boris Johnson vient à Kiev en expliquant qu’il ne faut rien signer et que l'Occident soutiendra l'Ukraine dans son combat.
https://www.thenation.com/article/w [...] diplomacy/
Même son de cloche si je consulte cet article de Ukrainska Pravda qui indique, je cite:
Citation :
[...]
After very heavy losses near Kyiv and in the north, after months of unsuccessfully besieging Chernihiv and Kharkiv, and after tough Western sanctions, Russia desperately needs an agreement with Ukraine.
[...]
The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories…
How and what can we talk about with Putin, if we cannot talk to him about Bucha, Irpin, Borodianka or Azovstal?...The moral gap, the gap in values, between Putin and the rest of the world is so huge that even the Kremlin doesn’t have a long enough negotiating table to cover it.
The second - much more unexpected - "obstacle" to agreements with the Russians arrived in Kyiv on 9 April. As soon as the Ukrainian negotiators and Abramovich/Medinsky, following the outcome of Istanbul, had agreed on the structure of a future possible agreement in general terms, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson appeared in Kyiv almost without warning.
"Johnson brought two simple messages to Kyiv. The first is that Putin is a war criminal; he should be pressured, not negotiated with. And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not. We can sign [an agreement] with you [Ukraine], but not with him. Anyway, he will screw everyone over", is how one of Zelenskyy's close associates summed up the essence of Johnson's visit.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/5/7344206/
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Bref, on peut dire que ton article de Causeur a sérieusement du plomb dans l'aile, pourtant tu t’en sers pour TT, sans vérifications, mais continuons Au sujet de Macron, je t’ai offert une source primaire: Naftali Bennett, ancien Premier Ministre Israélien, qui a agi en qualité de médiateur entre Poutine d’une part, et Zelenskyy, Macron, Scholz, Johnson et une personne des USA, alternativement Sullivan, Blinken ou Biden, d’autre part. Extraits :
Citation :
Bennett
- It went back and forth and then… I'll say this in the broad sense, I think there was a legitimate decision by the West to keep striking Putin
[...] I can't say if they were wrong. Maybe other thugs in the world would see it. My position at the time in this regard, (is that) it's not a national Israeli interest. Unlike the consulate or Iran, when I'm concerned about Israel, I stand firm. Interviewer:
- Yes. Bennett
- Here, I don’t have a say. I'm just the mediator, but I turn to America in this regard, I don’t do as I please. Anything I did was coordinated down to the last detail with the US, Germany and France.
Interviewer
- So they blocked it?
Bennet
- Basically, yes. They blocked it and I thought they're wrong.
In retrospect, it's too soon to know. The advantages and disadvantages: The downside of the war going on is the casualties in Ukraine and Russia, it's a very harsh blow to Ukraine, the country. There will have to be a huge restoration of the infrastructures, like the Marshall Plan. The negative impact on the export of wheat and food to the Middle East, although that was partially taken care of, the rise in energy costs, which puts heavy pressure on the democracies. Then there's the… Inteviewer
- Emigration too, no? Bennett
- If there's hunger in Africa we'll see emigration to Europe, which will threaten Europe. On the other hand, and I'm not being cynical, there's a statement here after very many years, President Biden created an alliance vis a vis an aggressor in the general perception and this reflects on other arenas such as China, Taiwan and there are consequences. So it's too soon to know. I'm not saying… I have one claim, I claim there was a good chance of reaching a ceasefire. Had they not curbed it, but I'm not sure. But I'm not claiming it was the right thing. In real time I thought the right thing was a ceasefire, now I can't say. Maybe it was… rewarding the thug too quickly. Maybe it would have conveyed the wrong message to other countries. Statesmanship is very complex and there are things I don’t want to go into, why it was the right thing or not. https://youtu.be/qK9tLDeWBzs?feature=shared&t=10173
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Oh ben ça alors ! Je te connais, tu peux toujours ergoter sur le degré de responsabilité de Macron, ou expliquer qu'il n'avait pas l'autorité de prendre de décision, mais tu ne peux en tout cas pas nier qu’il a une part de responsabilité, et que l'offre qui a été faite à l'Ukraine, de ne rien signer, et de continuer le combat a immensément joué sur la décision de continuer la guerre.
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